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Tonto911

The Poch...Two different views.....

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The following are taken from another Spurs forum and explain two points of view regarding our manager.

First post:

MP is doing an adequate job. Nothing spectacular. We are 'punching our weight'. He seems to be a one-trick pony. Certainly there is nothing new this season . Last season's tactics have long since been sussed by television pundits, and, surprise, surprise , by other managers. We are not making chances for Kane or Janssen. We are not opening up other defences. Our back four are good and Hugo is exceptional. But further up the park it is slow, predictable and rather boring.
MP'S big hero - Marcelo Bielsa ( who allegedly is a super-coach) is also an exponent of the high pressing game and running, running, running. In europe Bielsa has managed Espanyol, Athletico Bilbao, Marseille, and Lazio for 2 days.
MP and MB are both trophyless. That is not to say they are bad coaches. Simply put, they are one-dimensional and doing the best they can. Exceptional, outstanding , great, they are not. At Spurs we have tight purse-strings. Levy cuts the cloth to what is available. We have managers from the next level down. Thats life. Get used to it.

Response:

That is certainly one view. Another is that we are above Man United who have spent more on players than we are spending on our new stadium and have a wages budget which is double ours.
We are 5th in a league where the top two dont have CL or Europa to worry about. And have substantially more financial resources than us but both underperformed us last year.
Despite poor form we are unbeaten this year. And we play a higher proportion of our academy grads than any team in the top half of the table.
I cant think of any manager I would swap Poch for. The closest to him is Klopp. But Klopp has an easier job.
Of course I wish we had bought Mane or Wynaldum and not Sissoko. But I dont know whose fault that is. Its not like Southampton would have favored us in transfer negotiations.

My reason for posting this ?

To illustrate that with a factual and well considered statement both posters have shown their feelings without abusing anybody. Sensible, serious, mature and thought provoking debate.....

COYS

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I don't want to disagree with these two views but I am not really interested in other clubs failures after spending larger transfer fees or wage bills.

i was led to believe that our Manager was an aspiring World Class Manager who took us to a 3rd place in the Premiership because of his management skills. We were led to believe we had broken through the Permanent Top 4 barrier and would go on to perform adequately in the Champions League. His massive increase in his personal contract and contracts for many first team players suggested all was settled in our quest for progress.

He then oversaw our pre-season training and transfer project to continue the progress this season. We were not to be a one season wonder like Leicester. Not for the first time our transfer policy has been a shambles and of course produced the results that we have deserved. Out of Europe and hanging on to 5 th place in the Premiership. Of course, the transfer duds could come right or we might buy sensibly January!!! Failing that we will be lucky to finish 5th.

i accept this. What I struggle with is the optimists view that you mustn't criticise Poch and every failure of his his is greeted with "kick it into the long grass". Wait until the next game,next competition,end of season,new ground blah blah. If he is not up to the job now then delaying his departure just extends the uncertainty at the club. 

Of course all us individuals have our own opinions but if it quacks like a duck,walks like a duck, then Tonto Its a duck!!!!!!

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10 hours ago, Asc3 said:

I don't want to disagree with these two views but I am not really interested in other clubs failures after spending larger transfer fees or wage bills.

i was led to believe that our Manager was an aspiring World Class Manager who took us to a 3rd place in the Premiership because of his management skills. We were led to believe we had broken through the Permanent Top 4 barrier and would go on to perform adequately in the Champions League. His massive increase in his personal contract and contracts for many first team players suggested all was settled in our quest for progress.

He then oversaw our pre-season training and transfer project to continue the progress this season. We were not to be a one season wonder like Leicester. Not for the first time our transfer policy has been a shambles and of course produced the results that we have deserved. Out of Europe and hanging on to 5 th place in the Premiership. Of course, the transfer duds could come right or we might buy sensibly January!!! Failing that we will be lucky to finish 5th.

i accept this. What I struggle with is the optimists view that you mustn't criticise Poch and every failure of his his is greeted with "kick it into the long grass". Wait until the next game,next competition,end of season,new ground blah blah. If he is not up to the job now then delaying his departure just extends the uncertainty at the club. 

Of course all us individuals have our own opinions but if it quacks like a duck,walks like a duck, then Tonto Its a duck!!!!!!

Love this. Just what I needed to read this morning, thank you asc3.

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13 hours ago, Asc3 said:

I don't want to disagree with these two views but I am not really interested in other clubs failures after spending larger transfer fees or wage bills.

i was led to believe that our Manager was an aspiring World Class Manager who took us to a 3rd place in the Premiership because of his management skills. We were led to believe we had broken through the Permanent Top 4 barrier and would go on to perform adequately in the Champions League. His massive increase in his personal contract and contracts for many first team players suggested all was settled in our quest for progress.

He then oversaw our pre-season training and transfer project to continue the progress this season. We were not to be a one season wonder like Leicester. Not for the first time our transfer policy has been a shambles and of course produced the results that we have deserved. Out of Europe and hanging on to 5 th place in the Premiership. Of course, the transfer duds could come right or we might buy sensibly January!!! Failing that we will be lucky to finish 5th.

i accept this. What I struggle with is the optimists view that you mustn't criticise Poch and every failure of his his is greeted with "kick it into the long grass". Wait until the next game,next competition,end of season,new ground blah blah. If he is not up to the job now then delaying his departure just extends the uncertainty at the club. 

Of course all us individuals have our own opinions but if it quacks like a duck,walks like a duck, then Tonto Its a duck!!!!!!

So, you agree with the first post I assume ?

By the way, neither of the posts were written by me.

The second post does reflect a lot of my beliefs though.

I don't accept your statement that there is "uncertainty at the club" , as I have seen no reports of any disharmony, and if there had been the scum press would be all over it by now.

We clearly were not up to the standard required in CL, but many other Prem clubs have sufferred the same fate in the recent past.

Interesting that Leicester have achieved success in CL by playing the same way as they did winning the Prem last season, but not so good in the Prem itself....

Your "Duck" comment, whilst whimsical, does not really stand up in the context of this discussion. IMHO of course.

However, maybe The Poch is an ugly Duckling......... lol

 

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Losing to B Leverkusen was not a disaster. Amassing 4 points from 5 games against this level of European opposition was a disaster made worse by not playing our best team....same as Liverpool in the EFL Cup.

In my opinion the comments I am hearing from pundits,ex-players and commentators criticising all aspects of Spurs play and surprisingly the defence suggest the bubble has burst and the steady decline back to 5th place or lower has begun. The 5 point safety gap between us and United if they buy sensibly in January will soon close. The teams above us have all had unexpected results already, they will get stronger.

The comments above and Pochs totally rediculous comments about "not having a CL squad" and "Europa" Cup being good for us"( when in previous years we have detested it to the point of playing weakened teams and moaning about Thu and Sun games) show that Poch cannot fix what he does not understand.

As always I will repeat Pochs transfer duds may come good or we may buy sensibly in January but if not this lot ain't got the bottle to steady the ship. A couple of more losses and there will be mucho unhappiness amongst fans that will only worsen the atmosphere at the club.

Apologies for the duck comment but in these stressful times I will settle for it was whimsical.

Yes. I agree with the first post. I would suggest for contractual reasons and lack of suitable replacements we are stuck with Poch. In anticipation I am trying to lessen my expectations of any future progress but will be happy to retain 5th place

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I see both posts as coming up with views as reasons for how our club is doing. They both contain sensible sounding reasons albeit somewhat different in their opinions. To me they are simply a snapshot in time, ie the present, and may finish up not having any reflection of what the situation will be like at the end of the season.

I enjoyed reading them and have not felt the need to question either - they have both helped me to see the reality of our current situation (even if I still have no idea how we have finished up here).

As you and I have both posted in different threads, let's wait until the end of the season before we lock horns defending our positions.

COYS

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2 hours ago, Tonto911 said:

So, you agree with the first post I assume ?

By the way, neither of the posts were written by me.

The second post does reflect a lot of my beliefs though.

I don't accept your statement that there is "uncertainty at the club" , as I have seen no reports of any disharmony, and if there had been the scum press would be all over it by now.

We clearly were not up to the standard required in CL, but many other Prem clubs have sufferred the same fate in the recent past.

Interesting that Leicester have achieved success in CL by playing the same way as they did winning the Prem last season, but not so good in the Prem itself....

Your "Duck" comment, whilst whimsical, does not really stand up in the context of this discussion. IMHO of course.

However, maybe The Poch is an ugly Duckling......... lol

 

Tonto you have mentioned on at least 2 occasions that many other premier clubs have suffered the same fate in recent past. 

Could you please tell me who the clubs were that were not up to the standard please. 

I don't know any that have recorded 1 win 1 draw and 3 defeats in 5 games and played as bad as we have.

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38 minutes ago, Garyjones1271 said:

Tonto you have mentioned on at least 2 occasions that many other premier clubs have suffered the same fate in recent past. 

Could you please tell me who the clubs were that were not up to the standard please. 

I don't know any that have recorded 1 win 1 draw and 3 defeats in 5 games and played as bad as we have.

Ok. At the time of writing  "suffered the same fate", I was meaning that "other premier clubs" did not qualify for the round of 16.

However, here are some enlightening facts for you:

Man City 2011/2  won 2 drew 1 lost 3

Man City 2012/3  won 0 drew 3 lost 3 

Chelsea 2012/3    won 3  drew 1  lost 2

Liverpool 2014/5   won 1 drew 3 lost 2

None of this is offerred as an excuse for our poor performances in the CL this season, but at least it proves (to me) that my memory is not as bad as I thought ! (I had to look these results up before posting this reply)

 

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4 minutes ago, Tonto911 said:

Ok. When I wrote "suffered the same fate", I was meaning that they did not qualify for the round of 16.

However, here are some enlightening facts for you:

Man City 2011/2  won 2 drew 1 lost 3

Man City 2012/3  won 0 drew 3 lost 3  ***

Chelsea 2012/3    won 3  drew 1  lost 2

Liverpool 2014/5   won 1 drew 3 lost 2

 

 

Ok well I thought as much, take Chelsea out of the equation because they done quite a bit better than us and the other 2. 

Thanks for the confirmation.

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The clarity will seem clearer at the end of the season, either finish top 4 with the FA cup and Poch has done  ok

finish outside the top 4 with fuck all then all those with opinion that PH is not the right person can applaud there arguments 

BUT we are still and will be left  with the same players so if Poch goes the same old bollocks starts again , the manager needs time blah blah 

I just don't know typical spursy we start to reach those dizzy heights and boom , shit ourselves and fall off the ladder 

COYS 

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On 24 November 2016 at 11:40 AM, Jamesinashby said:

I see both posts as coming up with views as reasons for how our club is doing. They both contain sensible sounding reasons albeit somewhat different in their opinions. To me they are simply a snapshot in time, ie the present, and may finish up not having any reflection of what the situation will be like at the end of the season.

I enjoyed reading them and have not felt the need to question either - they have both helped me to see the reality of our current situation (even if I still have no idea how we have finished up here).

As you and I have both posted in different threads, let's wait until the end of the season before we lock horns defending our positions.

COYS

And anyway, now the temperature has dropped you wouldn't want to be sitting on that fence too long, otherwise you would need thermals and a Hot Toddy?? 

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I don't think Poch is the best thing since.....errrrr.....buying 2 Argentinian players......nor do I believe he is a one trick pony. results can be good or bad and luck plays a huge part. I do believe that keeping the same manager for a long time is a big plus and we need to do that now to progress.     I hate to use scum as an example but they would have been mid table a lot of years without the ever present professor yakkle. We can complain and show anger at boring predictable play but let's give it a go for a while....let's face it keep swapping hasn't helped has it? 

 

 

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On 11/25/2016 at 5:09 PM, Furrydice said:

I don't think Poch is the best thing since.....errrrr.....buying 2 Argentinian players......nor do I believe he is a one trick pony. results can be good or bad and luck plays a huge part. I do believe that keeping the same manager for a long time is a big plus and we need to do that now to progress.     I hate to use scum as an example but they would have been mid table a lot of years without the ever present professor yakkle. We can complain and show anger at boring predictable play but let's give it a go for a while....let's face it keep swapping hasn't helped has it? 

 

 

This. So much this.

I'm not thrilled with some of what I see on the pitch some days. Some days I'm not happy with anything I see on the pitch. Having said that I have to say I am happier than I was under Tim or AVB. Happier than I was with the merry-go-round of managers leading up to Poch. I like continuity. I have watched my NFL team change coaches and quarterbacks every season or two since the late 90's. If the NFL had such a thing as relegation my club would have gone down at least twice in that time frame. No coach was given the chance to stay long enough to do anything and each new coach inherited a roster of players that was a miss mass of guys brought in to fit numerous different systems. We the fans suffered every weekend...hoping and praying that something good might happen. 

Poch said last year that the success we were seeing then was "ahead of plan". We all knew that big money signings were not going to happen while we were building a stadium. We see Poch and the squad working on new formations with new tactics. It isn't smooth. Yet. The old plan got us to 3rd last year and it gave Chelsea that biggest test Conte's men have had in 7 matches. 

I cannot directly impact or change anything that happens in training, on the pitch or in the board room so I choose to believe in the plan. I choose to believe in Poch and in Levy. I wasn't born into loving this team like many of you and I came late to the party. I could have supported Chelsea or Arsenal or Man U or any other side but I liked the spirit at White Hart Lane. I liked the fact that Spurs weren't trying to buy a title but rather to go out and earn one. This club is still doing things in a way I like. A way I can be proud of. Yeah, we have bought some players but we aren't doing anything stupid (outside of Sissoko).

I don't know where it's going but I choose to believe. That doesn't mean we will succeed but I'm a hell of a lot happier doing it this way.

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22 minutes ago, Neophyte said:

This. So much this.

I'm not thrilled with some of what I see on the pitch some days. Some days I'm not happy with anything I see on the pitch. Having said that I have to say I am happier than I was under Tim or AVB. Happier than I was with the merry-go-round of managers leading up to Poch. I like continuity. I have watched my NFL team change coaches and quarterbacks every season or two since the late 90's. If the NFL had such a thing as relegation my club would have gone down at least twice in that time frame. No coach was given the chance to stay long enough to do anything and each new coach inherited a roster of players that was a miss mass of guys brought in to fit numerous different systems. We the fans suffered every weekend...hoping and praying that something good might happen. 

Poch said last year that the success we were seeing then was "ahead of plan". We all knew that big money signings were not going to happen while we were building a stadium. We see Poch and the squad working on new formations with new tactics. It isn't smooth. Yet. The old plan got us to 3rd last year and it gave Chelsea that biggest test Conte's men have had in 7 matches. 

I cannot directly impact or change anything that happens in training, on the pitch or in the board room so I choose to believe in the plan. I choose to believe in Poch and in Levy. I wasn't born into loving this team like many of you and I came late to the party. I could have supported Chelsea or Arsenal or Man U or any other side but I liked the spirit at White Hart Lane. I liked the fact that Spurs weren't trying to buy a title but rather to go out and earn one. This club is still doing things in a way I like. A way I can be proud of. Yeah, we have bought some players but we aren't doing anything stupid (outside of Sissoko).

I don't know where it's going but I choose to believe. That doesn't mean we will succeed but I'm a hell of a lot happier doing it this way.

Don't worry Pochs new contract will ensure he is going nowhere anytime soon. Will be a lot of bad feeling, bitterness and eventual contractual payout before this one is resolved!!!!!

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Guest Borodin

Here's another  person's viewpoint from the Vital Spurs website....

Mauricio Pochettino Is NOT A Good Manager !

I get tired of hearing people say that he's such an amazing manager. What has he accomplished? He has never won a single trophy in his managerial career.Rather than simply say 'I don't like him,' I'm going to support it with a few facts.

1) The above mentioned fact that he has never won anything. It seems rather ridiculous that a man who has never won anything is playing weakened teams in cup competitions.

2) The bottling boys. Pick a game. Last year at Newcastle. Last year at Chelsea. This year at Chelsea. Last year v Leicester at home. Last year v Palace and Arsenal in the cups (both at home). This team does not win big games under Pochettino. Nobody can debate this. He obviously cannot get them up for the meaningful games.

3) The myth of last season. Leicester won the league. A team of nobodies. Danny Drinkwater and Wes Morgan. Nobodies. Spurs had a decent season, finishing 3rd (although if you asked the fans you'd think that we'd won the World Cup). It was a pretty mediocre season in which all of the big teams virtually took a year off, and Spurs still could only muster third. Impressive? Not really.

4) The signings. Janssen, Sissoko, NKoudou. Yeah right - what a load of garbage.

5) The tactics. We've played about 2 and a half good halves of football this year. City at home, Stoke away, and the first half v Chelsea. I urge people to stop believing that Pochettino is the messiah. He seems like a nice guy but this club is not progressing forwards. I will have a rational discussion with anybody on the topic.

I do have to agree with number one. He can be aspiring, promising and up and coming but cannot possibly be considered a successful manager until  a shelf needs dusting down in the White Hart Lane Trophy Room

 

 

 

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45 minutes ago, Borodin said:

Here's another  person's viewpoint from the Vital Spurs website....

Mauricio Pochettino Is NOT A Good Manager !

I get tired of hearing people say that he's such an amazing manager. What has he accomplished? He has never won a single trophy in his managerial career.Rather than simply say 'I don't like him,' I'm going to support it with a few facts.

1) The above mentioned fact that he has never won anything. It seems rather ridiculous that a man who has never won anything is playing weakened teams in cup competitions.

2) The bottling boys. Pick a game. Last year at Newcastle. Last year at Chelsea. This year at Chelsea. Last year v Leicester at home. Last year v Palace and Arsenal in the cups (both at home). This team does not win big games under Pochettino. Nobody can debate this. He obviously cannot get them up for the meaningful games.

3) The myth of last season. Leicester won the league. A team of nobodies. Danny Drinkwater and Wes Morgan. Nobodies. Spurs had a decent season, finishing 3rd (although if you asked the fans you'd think that we'd won the World Cup). It was a pretty mediocre season in which all of the big teams virtually took a year off, and Spurs still could only muster third. Impressive? Not really.

4) The signings. Janssen, Sissoko, NKoudou. Yeah right - what a load of garbage.

5) The tactics. We've played about 2 and a half good halves of football this year. City at home, Stoke away, and the first half v Chelsea. I urge people to stop believing that Pochettino is the messiah. He seems like a nice guy but this club is not progressing forwards. I will have a rational discussion with anybody on the topic.

I do have to agree with number one. He can be aspiring, promising and up and coming but cannot possibly be considered a successful manager until  a shelf needs dusting down in the White Hart Lane Trophy Room

 

 

 

12 months ago you would have been strung up by the thumbs for posting this view of Poch. Unfortunately, I have been one of his biggest critics as I have seen that he has been unable to use the transfer window successfully and hasn't (even recognised!!) managed to recruit a 2nd striker or Effective Club Captain. 

He has purchased young motivated wannabees players well but his big money signings have not performed for him and he does not seem capable of getting the best out of them. Playing weakened teams and losing in the EFL Cup and the CL after so many years as an average team was arrogant,disgraceful,disrespectful to the fans and no doubt confusing to the players.

i honestly have no idea of our best team,I don't know if  we almost became a Top 4 team and then blew it in the last transfer window or whether last season was part of a crazy uplift season for Leicester and a combined bad season for our competitors.

Poch may get himself out of this but once fans start to lose faith in a Manager he needs some very good consistent results to turn it around.

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Brilliant and my sentiments exactly. I will never ever believe in poch. Poch the fraud, his time will come and I hope it's sooner rather than later. He has done nothing special at all. He hasn't even bettered avb,s points tally. We will be a better team when this jerk goes. Think you can tell I now not just dislike him I actually despise him.

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Guest Borodin

My summarisation of his tenure as Tottenham Manager is this....

He inherited a squad of players that were panic buys in order to appease the fans following the sale of their beloved Gareth Bale. Supporters were always going to be behind him as he ousted these people and started to bring in his own choices. The season's performances had to improve and they duly did. In his first season Spurs finished fifth and reached the League Cup Final...we all began to hope. Last season in hindsight, was a complete and never repeatable one off. All of the so called top clubs were going through massive transitional stages with regards to both playing and managerial staff. This presented a golden opportunity for a club not normally classed amongst the elite to lay down a challenge for the ultimate prize. They had to be positive, committed and confident in their abilities to take advantage of what was happening to their normally superior opponents. Enter the arena Leicester City...who with a certain style and panache took on the big boys and imposed themselves until the title was deservedly theirs. Meanwhile Tottenham displayed erratic and sometimes totally unprofessional performances mingled with brilliance that had us all wondering "would they, wouldn't they ?". Then with just a handful of matches left they imploded....finishing the season with an unforgivable defeat at Newcastle which allowed Arsenal to nick second spot. In other words they did nothing to signify improvement from the previous season...they finished third because of how poor the other teams were not because of how much they had progressed themselves.

This season we have flattered to deceive and thrown away our admission ticket for the Champions League knockout stage which was priced at £4.5m. Performances have wavered between impressive and dire. There is little consistency in both level of performance and team selection / formation. No evolvement despite new signings.

He is bereft of ideas and tactics. He constantly makes excuses or maintains (after nearly three years) we are on a learning curve. He cannot dodge the fact we have under achieving 'stars' and talentless, expensive new comers which are solely his responsibility. This season there is nowhere for him to hide but rather than face the music he insists his hands are tied regarding transfers until the move to the new stadium happens. That is just a way of trying to buy some time but how will anything change in two years  with him still in charge ??.

I grow weary of listening to his whining and pathetic excuses mingled with his declaration of the promised land lying just over the horizon. I know that eventually the immortal saying "This time next year Rodney we will be millionaires" proved to be true but that was in a fictional sitcom and not the harsh world of premiership football.

My faith has gone and there is no reason for me to drone on and on about it but simply declare the fact. I see no point in wasting both my time and effort in repeatedly stating my desire for him to be replaced as soon as possible. Suffice it to say that I totally believe in my club and it's ethos... always will... but cannot extend the same courtesy to the current manager and his staff. I shall print no more on this matter and concentrate on being a moderator and having some friendly banter with you lot. I know there are many of you who will disagree with my sentiments and I fully respect your viewpoint but trying to dissuade me from this opinion is pointless....a little like arguing over politics or religion.

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7 hours ago, Borodin said:

Here's another  person's viewpoint from the Vital Spurs website....

Mauricio Pochettino Is NOT A Good Manager !

I get tired of hearing people say that he's such an amazing manager. What has he accomplished? He has never won a single trophy in his managerial career.Rather than simply say 'I don't like him,' I'm going to support it with a few facts.

1) The above mentioned fact that he has never won anything. It seems rather ridiculous that a man who has never won anything is playing weakened teams in cup competitions.

2) The bottling boys. Pick a game. Last year at Newcastle. Last year at Chelsea. This year at Chelsea. Last year v Leicester at home. Last year v Palace and Arsenal in the cups (both at home). This team does not win big games under Pochettino. Nobody can debate this. He obviously cannot get them up for the meaningful games.

3) The myth of last season. Leicester won the league. A team of nobodies. Danny Drinkwater and Wes Morgan. Nobodies. Spurs had a decent season, finishing 3rd (although if you asked the fans you'd think that we'd won the World Cup). It was a pretty mediocre season in which all of the big teams virtually took a year off, and Spurs still could only muster third. Impressive? Not really.

4) The signings. Janssen, Sissoko, NKoudou. Yeah right - what a load of garbage.

5) The tactics. We've played about 2 and a half good halves of football this year. City at home, Stoke away, and the first half v Chelsea. I urge people to stop believing that Pochettino is the messiah. He seems like a nice guy but this club is not progressing forwards. I will have a rational discussion with anybody on the topic.

I do have to agree with number one. He can be aspiring, promising and up and coming but cannot possibly be considered a successful manager until  a shelf needs dusting down in the White Hart Lane Trophy Room

 

 

 

Hmmmm...interesting. I'm not sure I find these to be "facts" though so much as opinion.

1. No, he hasn't won a silverware yet. At some point in their career, this true of every single manager though. Fergie started managing in 74 and won his first title in 80 (6 years). Wenger started managing in 84 and won his first cup in 91 (7 years). Shankley starting managing in 49 and didn't win anything till 62 (11 years). Benitez started managing in 93 but didn't win anything beyond JR titles and club promotion until 02 (9 years). Ancelloti started managing in 95 and didn't win anything we would call significant until 04 (9 years). Poch started managing in 09. 

2. Ah yes....easy to pick on the club for "bottling" it when you conveniently leave out the fact that Spurs rescued more points from loosing positions than any other club last year, isn't it. Yes, we gave up some points from winning positions, this is true, but not nearly as many as we rescued. As for not winning "big games" what do we call the two wins vs Man City last year and the one this year? How about the embarrassment of Man U last spring? 

3. This is as close to something solid as I can find in this list but even I'm having a tough time. Yeah, the top clubs slipped and Spurs only managed 3rd but Leicester won the league while playing something like 11 or 12 fewer competitive matches and they had the Devil's own luck in terms of injuries. 

4. So we consider nothing but this year's signings...got it, and we cherry picking the ones who prove our point at that. Personally, I'm also looking at Toby, Dele, Vorm, Wanyama and yes, Son. Signing players is a crap shoot, even for top guys. Look at Man U this year and last year...stupid money on players doing fuck all. Chelsea spent big on a striker a lot of Spurs supporters wanted this year who can't get off the bench. Sorry...for me the jury is still out on this. N'Koudou looked pretty good on Saturday. Janssen has an amazing work rate and I still think he will find his shooting boots (no one rated Harry early on either). Sissoko....eh...

5. I don't think I ever called him the messiah but he does routinely get more out of less than a lot of other guys. Sure, he gets his tactics wrong sometimes but look what he did to Pep's boys. And now he is working on new things with the lads. Give his 3-4-3 and the 4-4-2 Diamond a bit of time and who knows what might happen. He is growing as a manager.

I just think the original author is cherry picking his facts to make his argument. He needs to look at the whole picture. Yeah, I might fall on the optimistic side of things. Doesn't mean I don't see the issues. What it means is that I work at trying to balance the good and the bad.

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Guest Borodin

When he refers to 'bottling' big games he does not refer to  league matches against 'big' clubs like Man City...he means crucially important....last year at Newcastle was against a relegated side and a win put Spurs 2nd in the league and above Arsenal, lose 1-5 = big game.....Last year at Chelsea was a vital match to keep Spurs with a chance of still becoming champions, winning 2-0 blew it 2-2 = big match...This year at Chelsea a chance to end a dismal record of losses/draws at Stamford Bridge and re-establish ourselves in the top four as genuine contenders, winning 1-0 lost 1-2 = big match, Leicester at home last season was a chance to deal a massive blow to their morale and prove Spurs were a real and present threat to their title hopes, lost 0-1 = big match. Poch said after the game :

“It’s difficult to accept when you give your all,” said Mauricio.“The effort was unbelievable but how do you explain when you see the stats, you create a lot more chances but you lose the game? This is football. We need to be strong and learn from this game.”

Does this ring any bells ??....Last week after Chelsea game....

"If we analyse the game we were better. We competed very well and we were a bit unlucky to concede. "We had the possession and created more attempts than Chelsea. All the stats are for us but football is not just about stats. We need to look ahead and prepare for the next game

FA Cup and a home game against Palace, a chance to reach the last 8 of the competition and the draw would have took us to Reading in quarter finals....some silverware perhaps at long last ??....lost 0-1 = big match  Spurs Vs Arsenal League Cup 3rd round...they don't get any bigger...Arsenal at home in a cup game. Poch changes both central defenders and plays 5th choice Fazio (whatever happened to him ??)...he fails to react for the first Gunners goal and then loops the ball high into the air and into the path of Flamini for his second of the night....lose 1-2 = big match.

Now add to that list Monaco away in Champions League...must win game in order to reach lucrative knockout stages and earn at least another £4.5m plus boost our reputation in Europe, field a weakened side and lose 1-2 = big match.

Regarding this aspect of results he does have a very good point...these games were either bottled or under estimated in importance by the management.....sometimes a bit of both.

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8 hours ago, Borodin said:

My summarisation of his tenure as Tottenham Manager is this....

He inherited a squad of players that were panic buys in order to appease the fans following the sale of their beloved Gareth Bale. Supporters were always going to be behind him as he ousted these people and started to bring in his own choices. The season's performances had to improve and they duly did. In his first season Spurs finished fifth and reached the League Cup Final...we all began to hope. Last season in hindsight, was a complete and never repeatable one off. All of the so called top clubs were going through massive transitional stages with regards to both playing and managerial staff. This presented a golden opportunity for a club not normally classed amongst the elite to lay down a challenge for the ultimate prize. They had to be positive, committed and confident in their abilities to take advantage of what was happening to their normally superior opponents. Enter the arena Leicester City...who with a certain style and panache took on the big boys and imposed themselves until the title was deservedly theirs. Meanwhile Tottenham displayed erratic and sometimes totally unprofessional performances mingled with brilliance that had us all wondering "would they, wouldn't they ?". Then with just a handful of matches left they imploded....finishing the season with an unforgivable defeat at Newcastle which allowed Arsenal to nick second spot. In other words they did nothing to signify improvement from the previous season...they finished third because of how poor the other teams were not because of how much they had progressed themselves.

This season we have flattered to deceive and thrown away our admission ticket for the Champions League knockout stage which was priced at £4.5m. Performances have wavered between impressive and dire. There is little consistency in both level of performance and team selection / formation. No evolvement despite new signings.

He is bereft of ideas and tactics. He constantly makes excuses or maintains (after nearly three years) we are on a learning curve. He cannot dodge the fact we have under achieving 'stars' and talentless, expensive new comers which are solely his responsibility. This season there is nowhere for him to hide but rather than face the music he insists his hands are tied regarding transfers until the move to the new stadium happens. That is just a way of trying to buy some time but how will anything change in two years  with him still in charge ??.

I grow weary of listening to his whining and pathetic excuses mingled with his declaration of the promised land lying just over the horizon. I know that eventually the immortal saying "This time next year Rodney we will be millionaires" proved to be true but that was in a fictional sitcom and not the harsh world of premiership football.

My faith has gone and there is no reason for me to drone on and on about it but simply declare the fact. I see no point in wasting both my time and effort in repeatedly stating my desire for him to be replaced as soon as possible. Suffice it to say that I totally believe in my club and it's ethos... always will... but cannot extend the same courtesy to the current manager and his staff. I shall print no more on this matter and concentrate on being a moderator and having some friendly banter with you lot. I know there are many of you who will disagree with my sentiments and I fully respect your viewpoint but trying to dissuade me from this opinion is pointless....a little like arguing over politics or religion.

Brilliant Borodin. I have nothing to add. Finally your sitting in the same seat as me. Levy is no mug. Poch has to totally transform this team now or face the sack in may.

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5 hours ago, Neophyte said:

Hmmmm...interesting. I'm not sure I find these to be "facts" though so much as opinion.

1. No, he hasn't won a silverware yet. At some point in their career, this true of every single manager though. Fergie started managing in 74 and won his first title in 80 (6 years). Wenger started managing in 84 and won his first cup in 91 (7 years). Shankley starting managing in 49 and didn't win anything till 62 (11 years). Benitez started managing in 93 but didn't win anything beyond JR titles and club promotion until 02 (9 years). Ancelloti started managing in 95 and didn't win anything we would call significant until 04 (9 years). Poch started managing in 09. 

2. Ah yes....easy to pick on the club for "bottling" it when you conveniently leave out the fact that Spurs rescued more points from loosing positions than any other club last year, isn't it. Yes, we gave up some points from winning positions, this is true, but not nearly as many as we rescued. As for not winning "big games" what do we call the two wins vs Man City last year and the one this year? How about the embarrassment of Man U last spring? 

3. This is as close to something solid as I can find in this list but even I'm having a tough time. Yeah, the top clubs slipped and Spurs only managed 3rd but Leicester won the league while playing something like 11 or 12 fewer competitive matches and they had the Devil's own luck in terms of injuries. 

4. So we consider nothing but this year's signings...got it, and we cherry picking the ones who prove our point at that. Personally, I'm also looking at Toby, Dele, Vorm, Wanyama and yes, Son. Signing players is a crap shoot, even for top guys. Look at Man U this year and last year...stupid money on players doing fuck all. Chelsea spent big on a striker a lot of Spurs supporters wanted this year who can't get off the bench. Sorry...for me the jury is still out on this. N'Koudou looked pretty good on Saturday. Janssen has an amazing work rate and I still think he will find his shooting boots (no one rated Harry early on either). Sissoko....eh...

5. I don't think I ever called him the messiah but he does routinely get more out of less than a lot of other guys. Sure, he gets his tactics wrong sometimes but look what he did to Pep's boys. And now he is working on new things with the lads. Give his 3-4-3 and the 4-4-2 Diamond a bit of time and who knows what might happen. He is growing as a manager.

I just think the original author is cherry picking his facts to make his argument. He needs to look at the whole picture. Yeah, I might fall on the optimistic side of things. Doesn't mean I don't see the issues. What it means is that I work at trying to balance the good and the bad.

But you are very new to this game and it's not all about facts I'm afraid. I judge on watching from the  south stand and what I'm watching is a tactically inept manager and a team playing  dross. I personally will not ever agree with anyone who supports this man. I've said all along he will be sacked by the end of the season. I'm a pessimist not an optimist.

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