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Topic: Henry Winter - The Times
    Posted: Yesterday at 10:07am
What’s up with MoPo? An ill-wind blows through the open European transfer window at the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium, ruffling Mauricio Pochettino. Tottenham’s esteemed manager has some legitimate frustration about the September 2 deadline making his stars vulnerable to covetous Continental clubs, yet it is hard to escape the feeling that he’s making a stiff breeze out to be a hurricane. His downbeat, distracted mood may harm Spurs more. Can we have the old Poch back, please, that famous breath of fresh air?

So much is right about Spurs, from infrastructure to quality of staff and quantity of fanbase, that Pochettino’s current behaviour seems particularly unnecessary. The 47-year-old Argentinian is certainly in a strange mood. A good result in next Sunday’s north London derby at the Emirates Stadium, where they have not won in the league since 2010, will change everything, of course, bringing a smile back to the face of Pochettino, and stilling the concerns of many Spurs fans.

Pochettino is rightly beloved by the Tottenham faithful after four successive qualifications for the Champions League, including that memorable run to last season’s final built on the camaraderie seen in the stunning semi-final comeback against Ajax in Amsterdam. Pochettino is a special managerial talent, experienced too with 279 games at Spurs, which makes his current frame of mind even harder to fathom.

Listening to Pochettino’s post-match media debrief after Sunday’s loss to Newcastle United evoked bafflement. His body language was uninspiring, some of his utterances negative, even suggesting that a “strong team bond” is “still far, far away from what we expect”. Why say that? What possible benefit can there be to indicate the team unit lacks unity? He may have been hinting that all will be well after September 2, when he knows the players he is working with, but it is risky and needless.

His comments were set within the context of the uncertainty bestowed by the European window closing later than the Premier League’s, leaving the English vulnerable and complicating his team building. Well, put the violin away, Pochettino: other managers avoid being as side-tracked as he is, preferring to focus on tactics, not transfers; the English have been plundering foreign clubs for years; and Spurs are the masters of brinkmanship in the market through their chairman, Daniel Levy, so can hardly complain about the impact of any last-minute departures. If a club comes in late for Christian Eriksen, bringing the usual intense focus, even circus, well that’s Levynomics.

Against Newcastle, Pochettino began with two of his best players, Eriksen and Jan Vertonghen, on the bench amid doubts about their futures. “We have an unsettled group for different reasons and different personal circumstances,” Pochettino said. “Some situations we cannot fix,” he added, admitting that he is finding the situation “difficult to handle”. That’s what managers do: they handle situations, however difficult.

Given Spurs’ lack of a high-calibre passer to feed Harry Kane, Pochettino needed Eriksen against Newcastle (and he eventually came on). “The players who are out are always good when you don’t win,” Pochettino replied to a question on Eriksen not starting. That’s slightly disrespectful to the Dane, who is frequently good when he’s let on the field — as a record of 49 goals and 60 assists in his 209 Premier League appearances, and interest from other clubs, would confirm.

Given Davinson Sánchez is still learning, Pochettino needed Vertonghen alongside his Belgian international colleague Toby Alderweireld. Sánchez was caught out for Newcastle’s goal from Joelinton.

There is a lament among some fans about Pochettino’s mood and also Levy not giving the manager the dream squad he wants. Levy has still sanctioned the recruitment of the £53.8 million Tanguy Ndombélé, who could prove immense in the centre, the considerable potential of the £25 million Ryan Sessegnon and the on-loan signing of Giovani Lo Celso, who just needs to get up to speed. The failure to push more forcefully for Jack Grealish and trigger his £60 million escape clause was odd, as the Aston Villa midfielder, if he had come, would have brought energy and ideas.

If Pochettino is still making points to Levy publicly about investing more in the squad, and not allowing players to run down contracts, well, it’s not helping the club. At the very least, his preoccupied demeanour sparks debate among supporters, darkening the mood further.

Such an adept coach as Pochettino, whose sessions inspire instant respect and admiration amongst managerial mentees flocking to look and learn, should be confronting other issues, not worrying about an awkward window. A manager of such stellar calibre should be sorting out such issues as: the wonderful Danny Rose sadly not being the force of old; Kyle Walker-Peters needing time to mature into Kyle Walker, or, yes, Kieran Trippier (and he has just pulled a hamstring anyway); the lack of width and a plan B especially with Fernando Llorente gone; the absence of a sustained and high press; and a paucity of real urgency in building attacks, occasionally being too sideways. He cannot blame the transfer window for all of this. That’s coaching and tactics, getting the ball to Kane in more dangerous positions.

Amid this slightly listless period at the club, it needs some perspective and the reminder that Spurs still have the best stadium in the country for blend of atmosphere and facilities and training facilities second only to Manchester City’s, and that they did reach the Champions League final last June. It’s ridiculously early in the season to panic, with the Champions League group stage not even drawn yet. They defeated Aston Villa and took a point off City, at the home of the champions, however fortuitously, and were denied two penalties against Newcastle. They have plenty of talent in the squad. Pochettino needs to restore Spurs’ hunger, urgency and focus — and his own.          

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More media who know nothing about the game itself. Why is everyone bagging on Sanchez for the Joelinton goal? Per several ex-players who were also defenders, Rose was the man who should have been defending that with the ball coming in from the other side of the pitch. 

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1 hour ago, Audere Est Facere said:

he needs to give a decent team talk pre match so we come out at 100 mph right from the kick off, not walking pace until we go a goal behind . 

We used to have reputation as fast starters, now we are late starters, often 60 minutes late.  

We have won more matches than anybody else in PL after being behind. That's a good and bad statistic at the same time. Well done for all those comebacks, but poor that we go behind so often....

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34 minutes ago, Neophyte said:

More media who know nothing about the game itself. Why is everyone bagging on Sanchez for the Joelinton goal? Per several ex-players who were also defenders, Rose was the man who should have been defending that with the ball coming in from the other side of the pitch. 

Worrying that Toby was not involved at all, as with the goal at home to villa.....

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3 hours ago, Tonto911 said:
Topic: Henry Winter - The Times
    Posted: Yesterday at 10:07am
What’s up with MoPo? An ill-wind blows through the open European transfer window at the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium, ruffling Mauricio Pochettino. Tottenham’s esteemed manager has some legitimate frustration about the September 2 deadline making his stars vulnerable to covetous Continental clubs, yet it is hard to escape the feeling that he’s making a stiff breeze out to be a hurricane. His downbeat, distracted mood may harm Spurs more. Can we have the old Poch back, please, that famous breath of fresh air?

So much is right about Spurs, from infrastructure to quality of staff and quantity of fanbase, that Pochettino’s current behaviour seems particularly unnecessary. The 47-year-old Argentinian is certainly in a strange mood. A good result in next Sunday’s north London derby at the Emirates Stadium, where they have not won in the league since 2010, will change everything, of course, bringing a smile back to the face of Pochettino, and stilling the concerns of many Spurs fans.

Pochettino is rightly beloved by the Tottenham faithful after four successive qualifications for the Champions League, including that memorable run to last season’s final built on the camaraderie seen in the stunning semi-final comeback against Ajax in Amsterdam. Pochettino is a special managerial talent, experienced too with 279 games at Spurs, which makes his current frame of mind even harder to fathom.

Listening to Pochettino’s post-match media debrief after Sunday’s loss to Newcastle United evoked bafflement. His body language was uninspiring, some of his utterances negative, even suggesting that a “strong team bond” is “still far, far away from what we expect”. Why say that? What possible benefit can there be to indicate the team unit lacks unity? He may have been hinting that all will be well after September 2, when he knows the players he is working with, but it is risky and needless.

His comments were set within the context of the uncertainty bestowed by the European window closing later than the Premier League’s, leaving the English vulnerable and complicating his team building. Well, put the violin away, Pochettino: other managers avoid being as side-tracked as he is, preferring to focus on tactics, not transfers; the English have been plundering foreign clubs for years; and Spurs are the masters of brinkmanship in the market through their chairman, Daniel Levy, so can hardly complain about the impact of any last-minute departures. If a club comes in late for Christian Eriksen, bringing the usual intense focus, even circus, well that’s Levynomics.

Against Newcastle, Pochettino began with two of his best players, Eriksen and Jan Vertonghen, on the bench amid doubts about their futures. “We have an unsettled group for different reasons and different personal circumstances,” Pochettino said. “Some situations we cannot fix,” he added, admitting that he is finding the situation “difficult to handle”. That’s what managers do: they handle situations, however difficult.

Given Spurs’ lack of a high-calibre passer to feed Harry Kane, Pochettino needed Eriksen against Newcastle (and he eventually came on). “The players who are out are always good when you don’t win,” Pochettino replied to a question on Eriksen not starting. That’s slightly disrespectful to the Dane, who is frequently good when he’s let on the field — as a record of 49 goals and 60 assists in his 209 Premier League appearances, and interest from other clubs, would confirm.

Given Davinson Sánchez is still learning, Pochettino needed Vertonghen alongside his Belgian international colleague Toby Alderweireld. Sánchez was caught out for Newcastle’s goal from Joelinton.

There is a lament among some fans about Pochettino’s mood and also Levy not giving the manager the dream squad he wants. Levy has still sanctioned the recruitment of the £53.8 million Tanguy Ndombélé, who could prove immense in the centre, the considerable potential of the £25 million Ryan Sessegnon and the on-loan signing of Giovani Lo Celso, who just needs to get up to speed. The failure to push more forcefully for Jack Grealish and trigger his £60 million escape clause was odd, as the Aston Villa midfielder, if he had come, would have brought energy and ideas.

If Pochettino is still making points to Levy publicly about investing more in the squad, and not allowing players to run down contracts, well, it’s not helping the club. At the very least, his preoccupied demeanour sparks debate among supporters, darkening the mood further.

Such an adept coach as Pochettino, whose sessions inspire instant respect and admiration amongst managerial mentees flocking to look and learn, should be confronting other issues, not worrying about an awkward window. A manager of such stellar calibre should be sorting out such issues as: the wonderful Danny Rose sadly not being the force of old; Kyle Walker-Peters needing time to mature into Kyle Walker, or, yes, Kieran Trippier (and he has just pulled a hamstring anyway); the lack of width and a plan B especially with Fernando Llorente gone; the absence of a sustained and high press; and a paucity of real urgency in building attacks, occasionally being too sideways. He cannot blame the transfer window for all of this. That’s coaching and tactics, getting the ball to Kane in more dangerous positions.

Amid this slightly listless period at the club, it needs some perspective and the reminder that Spurs still have the best stadium in the country for blend of atmosphere and facilities and training facilities second only to Manchester City’s, and that they did reach the Champions League final last June. It’s ridiculously early in the season to panic, with the Champions League group stage not even drawn yet. They defeated Aston Villa and took a point off City, at the home of the champions, however fortuitously, and were denied two penalties against Newcastle. They have plenty of talent in the squad. Pochettino needs to restore Spurs’ hunger, urgency and focus — and his own.          

Have to agree with this!

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We lost 13 PL games last season, 20 in all competitions I think? I put this mainly down to fatigue within our preferred starting 11 at the tail end of the season and the lack of quality in depth overall, but maybe there was more going on (contract negotiations etc) behind the scenes which have spilt over into this new season? A season I was convinced was gonna see us (still might) really make our mark with what I thought was a great Summer window.

Henry Winter is right imo! Poch should have handled this period better. Stop complaining and either play Eriksen as always until it is 100% certain he is off, or don't play him at all! Messing about with 20-25 minute cameos causes even more confusion and uncertainty for all.

No idea what's going on with Jan? He of all the players in question I would have thought would have been prepared to just "get on with things". Maybe Poch thought that too, hence his possible disappointment to find out otherwise and therefore this might be the reason for his benching? If so once again, just play him until the situation is sorted one way or another. If Jan is anything it is a true professional when on the pitch and his partnership with Toby is close to being automatic and telepathic! 

I find it hard to question our beloved leader, but IF?? any of the above (Winter's piece too) is true, then I think Poch has got this one wrong!

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3 hours ago, Neophyte said:

More media who know nothing about the game itself. Why is everyone bagging on Sanchez for the Joelinton goal? Per several ex-players who were also defenders, Rose was the man who should have been defending that with the ball coming in from the other side of the pitch. 

I think both are at fault. It's nothing new that Rose is often out of position. The problem I had with Sanchez is that he never turn his head to see who's behind him.

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I think most of his points are true and valid. Poch tell us that we don't have a plan B AFTER the transfer window is closed. Llorente wasn't even a good plan B. What's the issue with Wanyama and Jan? He added two more players to this transfer mess.

He told Wanyama that the club is not a charity. Shouldn't he say this to Vorm and Lamela last season?

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Interesting comments in daily mail today.

good story about Ndombele and pepe being from the same part of Paris.....

NOTHING about the Poch at all.....

Maybe, just for once they do know something........

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I don't think POCH should leave. During his 5 years he has progressed the club from a Top 6 to a Top 4 team. Of course he has been lucky to develope a squad or at least a first team to a very good European  standard ( I think his wages have increased from 5 plus M to 8.5m a year so he has been well rewarded).

personally I am not convinced of his man management and motivation skills. He has fallen out with a lot of players a lot of players fall out with him. Previously I just blame the player but the recent spate of players leaving cheaply or on a possible free make me question his management.

His continued questioning of the Club in terms of his position of Manager/Coach, Transfer Policy( if he is concerned about Harry cover why now months after them event is he talking about interest in Llorente.

His progressed entitled him to think he was overly important to the Club he had not realised his Chairman is the normal type of Boss. Agree with him and know your place if not irrespective of your position I will move you on.

interesting days ahead. If we get through this ??? Situation??? There could be a bumpynroasbahead.

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If the closure of the European Transfer window resolves the behind the scenes problems at the club...all well and good.

Poch has been the most vocal of all the Managers in British football about this subject.

It may be that despite lengthy contract negotiations our "walk on a free" players who now only have to wait until January to discuss and agree wonderful personal deals where transfer monies that could have been paid to Spurs can be contracted into their pockets. Wait another 4/5 months and their last golden moves will come to fruition.

of course they could change their minds and despite lengthy contract negotiations failing they could  now decide that loyalty to the Club and doing the right thing means they could agree new contracts at Spurs. Yea!! This is only likely if they genuinely believe they would receive no other offers.

This challenge to Management within the club cannot be good for morale or motivation and the recent Jan situation has highlighted even the most senior of players is affected by this. As a world class manager said on TV yesterday happiness and the opposite are contagious this is not a good situation.

Poch's problems have not gone away they have been parked in the car park until the winter months agents start talking again.

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I don't blame any player, especially the elder statesman, for trying to angle for a final bumper contract. Vert's, Toby and Rose have been great servants to the club whilst relatively speaking, under valued. Eriksen too!

For all of the great work Enic have done they have screwed up here! Improved (going rate) contract offers should have been made 2 years ago and if they were and rejected, then what can you do? Sell I suppose! If they weren't because we could not afford it, (Stadium Build) then we are certainly gonna pay for it come January and in 20/21 in terms of lost transfer fee's but I'm still backing Poch to plan for this with Foyth, Sanchez, Dier, Davies, Sessengnon, N'dombele, Lo Celso and one or 2 more additions over the next 2 windows.

Looks like everyone is staying for now and I can only hope we get our season properly underway after the International break. Before all of this nonsense I was convinced we would push City and Liverpool all the way until the final weeks of this season and gain some silverware, of course we still might, but I am now less confident. What I am confident about is we have enough to qualify for The CL once again and with flair! 

COYS!

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I will say this one last time...

Contract offers have been made. Multiple times starting over 2 years ago. Eriksen and Alderweireld both (assuming the numerous reports on this are even close to correct)

The club has been willing to listen to offers for at least Alderweireld for the last 3 transfer windows and this summer he could have been had for only 25 million. No offers.

The club has been willing to listen to offers for Eriksen for at least this last window (and might have listened before if the money had been right) and again, no offers.

Anyone here tried selling a house? I have. It was, in my opinion, a wonderful house. I had done a lot of work on it, modernized a lot of things. I'd fixed all of the basic maintenance things left undone by the previous owners. The house has served us well for over a decade and I felt it was worth more than I'd paid for it. The real estate agent and I both felt it would sell quickly. In the end, it took nearly 9 months and I got a lot less for it than I felt it was worth. That was with just me and the buyers involved too. Now imagine what a nightmare it would have been if the house had gotten a say in the matter as well.

Alerweireld and Eriksen are top players who want to continue to compete at the top. Now, after the growth Spurs have experienced under Poch, that means there are only a handful of clubs out there with a prayer of matching that ambition. If those clubs aren't interested, things get complicated.

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2 hours ago, Neophyte said:

I will say this one last time...

Contract offers have been made. Multiple times starting over 2 years ago. Eriksen and Alderweireld both (assuming the numerous reports on this are even close to correct)

The club has been willing to listen to offers for at least Alderweireld for the last 3 transfer windows and this summer he could have been had for only 25 million. No offers.

The club has been willing to listen to offers for Eriksen for at least this last window (and might have listened before if the money had been right) and again, no offers.

Anyone here tried selling a house? I have. It was, in my opinion, a wonderful house. I had done a lot of work on it, modernized a lot of things. I'd fixed all of the basic maintenance things left undone by the previous owners. The house has served us well for over a decade and I felt it was worth more than I'd paid for it. The real estate agent and I both felt it would sell quickly. In the end, it took nearly 9 months and I got a lot less for it than I felt it was worth. That was with just me and the buyers involved too. Now imagine what a nightmare it would have been if the house had gotten a say in the matter as well.

Alerweireld and Eriksen are top players who want to continue to compete at the top. Now, after the growth Spurs have experienced under Poch, that means there are only a handful of clubs out there with a prayer of matching that ambition. If those clubs aren't interested, things get complicated.

Completely agree as I eluded to in my post, "What Can You Do"?

So that leaves us with a few reasons/outcomes....

The players in question, Jan too were offered a contract improvement at the going rate. Toby/Verts 120-30k? Eriksen £170-80k?

They refused because....

They don't believe they will win anything with Spurs? or Their need/greed for much more (a free) is why? I'm guessing it's the latter! So what now? We currently own them! Lets use them to our benefit for as long as we have them and gradually give more and more playing time to the likes of Foyth, Davies and Lo Celso.

Add one or 2 potential replacements in the next 2 windows to challenge our preferred centre back partnership and look for that creative M/Fd.

If they drop off the pace and it looks like they are just go through the motions, drop em! If they play up (doubtful) isolate them from the squad. Other than a complete 180 turnaround (signing new deals) or putting a 10m price tag on each of their heads in January "What Can We Do"?

 

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The word being reported by Alasdair Gold from football.london (about the only reporter I trust these days) is as follows:

Eriksen - not about the money. He is looking for a new challenge (maybe feeling things have gone stale at Spurs) and a change in lifestyle to something more continental. He has nothing against Spurs, has been offered what his camp considers a fair contract extension, just really thought it was time to move. The fact that none of his prefered options came in for him has left him a bit embarrassed and likely pretty hurt. (on a personal note, I know that is exactly how I would feel)

Toby - had a deal agreed in principle between player and club before his representation talked him out of it because it wasn't long enough. That move hurt Poch which is what caused the rift between player and manager 2 seasons ago. All parties expected someone to come in for him in the 2018 window. When that didn't happen Poch mended fences but still expected the player to move on this summer with the cheap transfer fee making the player easy to grab. Again, everyone has been left surprised that no offers have come in at all.

Vertonghen - this is harder to figure but from Poch's comments last year, he still likes the player and everyone expected an extension to be in the offing this summer. That doesn't appear to have happened. From the bits and pieces Gold has been able to pick up at Hotspur Way, it seems maybe Vertonghen questioned Poch about some things and the gaffer didn't take kindly to it. There were also questions about Jan's level of conditioning coming back from the summer break where he apparently didn't do everything expected of him by the club. With Davinson and Toby in better shape and not questioning Poch's methods, it was an easy choice to drop Jan for the opening matches. After yesterday, I'm not sure I'm not in agreement.

So I don't think it's about greed for any of these guys. I think it is a lot more complicated than that and it might be fixable for each. I know we are a stronger club with these 3 than we are without.

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Lets hope so! But ultimately Toby's Team, which Toby is a part of, rejected the new contract offer because it was not good (money/terms) enough and they wanted more!

Personally I have no problem with a player in this day and age (being greedy perhaps) trying to do and get the best for himself and his family and if he can't get it at his current club and that club has allowed him, in whatever way, to take control/advantage of his situation,  then good luck to him!

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No idea what the argument between Jan and Poch is about. Jan has been a model pro for club and country over the years. He is no troublemaker IMO. Poch is stubborn, asking him to change is no easy task. If Poch is upset with Jan, fitness issue is just an excuse to drop him. Sanchez is not better than Jan on the field but I'm sure he is fitter than Jan.

 

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In the early days Poch rarely put a foot wrong. I for one was 100% behind him as he was showing all the attributes needed to become a top manager. However, the last 10 months which have been very difficult for one reason or another, should have provided any manager with the opportunity to display the characteristics and ability to come up with solutions to overcome the problems or, at the very least, mitigate matters before turning things around. For me, the fact that he achieved considerable success with out the benefit of being able to buy players is not sufficient to immediately see him as a great coach and manager. There are many managers in the EPL doing a great job on a shoe string - they are 2 a penny. For most we will never know if they could have emulated the great managers if given a chance with one of the very best successful clubs in Europe. Many of those managers doing a good job with the smaller teams have singularly failed when these slumps occurred and get sacked. None of those managers were given the opportunity with a top club, but Poch has and came very close to achieving greatness. 

As far as I am concerned, blaming Enic and Levy for the current ailments so detaching any blame from Poch is unrealistic. He has had squads good enough for  4 times being in the top 4 plus getting to the CL final. That same squad over the last 10 months has been pretty abysmal. How do Enic  and Levy come under criticism for the metamorphosis from a pretty good team to a pretty rubbish one? Poch decides on tactics, picking the team and substitutions with help and advice from his coaches and that is the sad truth. A top coach finds a way around distracting problems. 

We thought we had a great coach and gave him the chance to prove it but in my opinion he has failed. Having a confident and successful team makes managing a side much easier. What this club needs is a manager who can successfully keep a good team playing up to it's abilities, not one that loses the plot and lets the side slump to the level we have.

We all have our opinions and this is mine. I would love it to be a load of rubbish, but I have little faith these days that Poch will prove me wrong.

COYS

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In another post elsewhere Roycey has stated Poch IS a Top 10 World Class Manager and our latest 4 signings " Yes There were 4 Apparently !!!" Signed because of Poch.

I also thought in  Pochs previous 4 years progress with Spurs on a limited budget had allowed him to be considered Top 10. Gary's facts and recent thoughts have caused me to reconsider the situation now.

What we don't yet know definitively is has POCH reached his ceiling. He certainly seems to have developed a trait of not only not getting on with players but actually falling out causing them to move on, suffer contract complications or a resulting loss of form in previously highly regarded players.

The evidence of the last 20 games is POCH is on the decline. He might be Top 15-20 and I am not sure he can change his personality to be more affable with players. If he was a disciplinarian and sorting out destructive players. Then fair one. We have no reasons why players have seemed to fall out with him. A future book will no doubt tell us.

My feeling is Poch WAS an emerging Top Class manager but his tired stale squad and Mr Levy and the Owners failing go back him at the relevant time has resulted in bad ....terrible performances and 11th place league position.

Things will automatically get slightly better but I am not sure Poch can continue progress of the 4 year golden generation. I am and was underwhelmed by the last transfer window.

 

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I think your right Asc3 my friend about Poch progressing further with (your quote) the golden generation! What manager would be able to motivate certain players who are now 4-5 years older, who are under paid and coming to near the end of their careers and definitely the end of their current contracts. It was Poch, no one else who kept these players on side, for over 5 years, when many elsewhere would have upped and left within half that time.

Again I think you are right Asc3. We have gone stale and that's why Poch wanted investment almost 2 years ago. He knows football and he knew this was on the horizon, but Enic, being Enic, they squeezed every last drop out of Poch's ability to motivate and produce good CL league qualifying football.

A question not only for you my friend but for anyone else on this forum who might read this.....

What chance would you give Poch of continuously qualifying for The CL, winning the league, winning the CL and domestic cups if he were at Liverpool, City, Utd, Chelsea, Madrid, Barca or PSG? All clubs, who are willing to financially back their managers!

Personally, I would give him a 90+% chance!

 

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Are you talking of this season's Liverpool? If so, it it can only be conjecture. There have been good managers taking over decent squads yet failed. Both Barcelona and Real Madrid have had a new manager taking over who has not got the best out of the squad. Arsenal, Chelsea and Utd have had half decent squads in the last 4 years with some of the world's best players and have  done no better than Spurs but have won one one of the minor cups.

Up until last Christmas I would have backed Poch whole heartedly. However, he has had the same squad in 2019 and somehow that very squad is no longer performing. In fact quite badly. He never actually won any silverware when the League Cup and FA Cup and even the European Cup should have been within his grasp. Utd, Chelsea and Arsenal managed the minor cup wins.

I m prepared to say he managed very well when things were going for him and did it on a shoe string and I give him full credit. However, if I do that, I can't simply turn a blind eye to the last 10 months. He can't just be given credit for when things go right and then be absolved from all blame when things go wrong. After all, what happens on the pitch each game has nothing to do with Enic and Levy. Poch trains them, decides on the formation each game, picks the team and decides on who and substitutes are and when used. For me he can't hide from that when things suddenly start to go pear shape.

There are many who post on here (some have actually attended the game) who regularly criticise his team selection, his tactics and his use of substitutes. I think their views have to be respected. Because of the above my answer to your question is, yes he may well of succeeded with Liverpool, but just taking 2019 into account - especially this season when we have only won 4 out of 14 matches and lost 21 in 2019,  it now raises doubts about finding solutions when things go wrong.

The only way we will find out is, if he leaves which now is becoming a possibility, will be if he goes to a genuine top team and win the big trophies.

COYS

 

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I told myself I wasn't going to do this anymore...ah well.

Here is a thought that no one will like...what if NO ONE is to BLAME for the last 10 months? What if it was simply UNAVOIDABLE?

I know that it isn't a popular idea. We, as humans, want to blame someone or something. We need it to make sense of our world. We don't like things to be unavoidable.

There were so many moving parts to this whole situation, many of unforeseen at the beginning of this journey, that I think it very possible that Spurs got stuck.

Consider the following things, which all played some part in where we are today:

1. Brexit - wasn't even a thought when Levy/ENIC started the stadium planning but became a huge issue AFTER construction was started, leading to massive cost overruns.

2. Massive issues with the safety systems that delayed opening, to the point I've seen it suggested that contractors might have been negligent.

3. An extended stay at the national stadium, leading to a real case of homesickness on the part of the fans and players. I read where we having won an away game since Jan which is rubbish as every game we played from Jan to April (when we moved back to White Hart Lane) was an away match.

4. Poch outperforming the plan likely put Levy in an unexpected bind. The original goal was a 5 year to earn Champions League qualification about the same time Spurs moved into the new stadium. Instead, that happened in year 2 which likely raised the price tag on new players, both because other clubs knew Spurs were making that money and because Spurs needed a higher level of player. I think Spurs had transfer targets over the last two years but when those couldn't be done, Poch/Levy/Hitchens et all decided to stand pat rather than bring in talent below the required levels (think N'jie, GKN, Janssen, etc).

5. Player prices have increased at a rate no one could foresee. Five years ago when Poch took over at Enfield, a player like Ndombele would have been purchased for 25 million (and we fans likely would have thought that too much). This summer he moved for over 60 million and we thought it good business. That is nearly a 2.5x increase in just 5 years but Spurs income hasn't gone up that much in that same time frame.

I know some will read this and tell me I am making excuses. Maybe I am but I don't think so. Money isn't a gray area. Spurs have a budget just like all of us and it is governed by the same rules that govern our individual households, albeit with more zeros in front of the decimal point. The money they have is the money they have and for some time that has been restricted by the plan to put Spurs in a position to be a top-earning club. You have to invest to make. Spurs have invested well. I doubt they are exactly where Levy planned for them to be at this point though as I doubt very much he wanted to have the debt he currently has due to factors above impacting the stadium build.

However, even with all that, he found the funds this summer for a 120 million NET spend and he told the trust there was more if Spurs could have worked the deals. The fact that we are where we are, despite the above unavoidable issues, amazes me.

I just can't see laying massive blame on anyone for them though.

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9 minutes ago, Neophyte said:

I told myself I wasn't going to do this anymore...ah well.

Here is a thought that no one will like...what if NO ONE is to BLAME for the last 10 months? What if it was simply UNAVOIDABLE?

I know that it isn't a popular idea. We, as humans, want to blame someone or something. We need it to make sense of our world. We don't like things to be unavoidable.

There were so many moving parts to this whole situation, many of unforeseen at the beginning of this journey, that I think it very possible that Spurs got stuck.

Consider the following things, which all played some part in where we are today:

1. Brexit - wasn't even a thought when Levy/ENIC started the stadium planning but became a huge issue AFTER construction was started, leading to massive cost overruns.

2. Massive issues with the safety systems that delayed opening, to the point I've seen it suggested that contractors might have been negligent.

3. An extended stay at the national stadium, leading to a real case of homesickness on the part of the fans and players. I read where we having won an away game since Jan which is rubbish as every game we played from Jan to April (when we moved back to White Hart Lane) was an away match.

4. Poch outperforming the plan likely put Levy in an unexpected bind. The original goal was a 5 year to earn Champions League qualification about the same time Spurs moved into the new stadium. Instead, that happened in year 2 which likely raised the price tag on new players, both because other clubs knew Spurs were making that money and because Spurs needed a higher level of player. I think Spurs had transfer targets over the last two years but when those couldn't be done, Poch/Levy/Hitchens et all decided to stand pat rather than bring in talent below the required levels (think N'jie, GKN, Janssen, etc).

5. Player prices have increased at a rate no one could foresee. Five years ago when Poch took over at Enfield, a player like Ndombele would have been purchased for 25 million (and we fans likely would have thought that too much). This summer he moved for over 60 million and we thought it good business. That is nearly a 2.5x increase in just 5 years but Spurs income hasn't gone up that much in that same time frame.

I know some will read this and tell me I am making excuses. Maybe I am but I don't think so. Money isn't a gray area. Spurs have a budget just like all of us and it is governed by the same rules that govern our individual households, albeit with more zeros in front of the decimal point. The money they have is the money they have and for some time that has been restricted by the plan to put Spurs in a position to be a top-earning club. You have to invest to make. Spurs have invested well. I doubt they are exactly where Levy planned for them to be at this point though as I doubt very much he wanted to have the debt he currently has due to factors above impacting the stadium build.

However, even with all that, he found the funds this summer for a 120 million NET spend and he told the trust there was more if Spurs could have worked the deals. The fact that we are where we are, despite the above unavoidable issues, amazes me.

I just can't see laying massive blame on anyone for them though.

Neo, I tend to be a pessimist but also try to not directly disagree with people.  So I won't disagree with you when you say  "I am making excuses". Not sure I could agree with any part of your excuserama.......

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4 hours ago, Royce 71 said:

I think your right Asc3 my friend about Poch progressing further with (your quote) the golden generation! What manager would be able to motivate certain players who are now 4-5 years older, who are under paid and coming to near the end of their careers and definitely the end of their current contracts. It was Poch, no one else who kept these players on side, for over 5 years, when many elsewhere would have upped and left within half that time.

Again I think you are right Asc3. We have gone stale and that's why Poch wanted investment almost 2 years ago. He knows football and he knew this was on the horizon, but Enic, being Enic, they squeezed every last drop out of Poch's ability to motivate and produce good CL league qualifying football.

A question not only for you my friend but for anyone else on this forum who might read this.....

What chance would you give Poch of continuously qualifying for The CL, winning the league, winning the CL and domestic cups if he were at Liverpool, City, Utd, Chelsea, Madrid, Barca or PSG? All clubs, who are willing to financially back their managers!

Personally, I would give him a 90+% chance!

 

If Poch went to a big club and they had an established efficient transfer system and an assistant to advise on the use of Subsitutions and game management I think Poch could go on to win some trophies.

As an addition I would hate Spurs to become a big money wasteful club. I not only want them to be successful but to do it as they started off for 4 years. Then  some transfer money saved in previous years HAD to be spent. If only.......

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