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Jamesinashby

Poch sacked

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2 hours ago, Jamesinashby said:

All your points are valid, Roycey.

I accept that had money been made available earlier the team could have been strengthened. What I struggle with is that we don't know for sure why it was not provided. I can't see Levy deliberately withholding funds if they were available. I would like to know just what the debt is remaining on the rebuild and did all those delay costs have a bearing on not buying players. If so I don't think Levy, per se, can be blamed as the main reason for the slump. 

I think that Poch's ability on coaching the players is very good. He certainly improved some considerably. Where I personally saw weaknesses with him was I felt he stubbornly made the players play to his system rather than find a system that fitted their strengths. In the first couple of seasons when Harry was winning the golden boot, he had players putting through balls for him to run on to or pass it to feet just outside the box like his 2 goals on Saturday. During 2019 Poch changed that with Harry as much a play maker from a deeper position, which he is great at, but those who were meant to take over this scoring role weren't prolific enough. For me this happened too often and is wasting a top class striker. Also Dele was fantastic when he was allowed to get forward and he got goals and assists. This season he was played far too deeply (and it may have been behind his slump in form) and, for me, we lost that attacking ability. I don't know why Lucas got so little game time and was on the bench so often. Mourhino changed the system back to Harry and Dele in their most effective roles and used Lucas more and we are back to playing great attractive football and winning again. I also did not like this slow possession football - most of the time it was in our own half with the opponents not bothering to press until we got into their third - they just sat back keeping their shape and making it difficult to find space to create openings. There were the odd games when Poch got the team playing fast one touch football when we slaughtered the opposition, but that was the exception rather than the rule. I couldn't understand why he preferred the slow playing out from the back so often. At times it led to us conceding goals. Then there was his team selections and especially his substitutions which, I personally, was puzzled by. 

As 2019 progressed, there were other things happening that added to the decline. I think it possible the closeness between Poch and Levy took a downward turn and I accept that Levy probably didn't handle that well. I also feel Eriksen didn't help with too many off games - for me Eriksen was the real driving force for the successes we had. I also feel there was dressing room problems as the problem worsened. Something was definitely wrong. 

That said, the squad Mourhino has got back to playing to it's best is the squad Poch had. The question for me, is should Poch have been able to discern where the fault lay and put it right? Just my opinion, I think he should. Also, from my first paragraph, I gave my views on why I lost confidence in Poch who, at this moment in time, I feel was still learning the job and not showing me that he was becoming a top manager. 

There are different views on here regarding this subject. I think it will take a few years before we find out how good Poch will become. I feel he will finish up with a top club with the money to provide him with the players he wants. If he succeeds then those on here like you and Neo will be proved right and I will be the first to congratulate you and hold my hands up and admit I got it wrong. 

COYS

 

Good post James and some great points and examples I would find hard to argue with and as you say it will probably be sometime before the truth comes out, possibly another book from Poch or a retiring player?

Here's my take on it all, and I'll try to be brief....

Even though the stadium doubled in price, half a billion over budget, I still don't understand how Enic couldn't find 200 million for Poch, who obviously wanted to freshen up an ageing and in a number of cases, a complacent squad. Certain players could afford to only give 85%, because they knew they would be selected for the next game because there was no new blood to challenge their place in the team. For me, you ALWAYS strengthen when at your strongest. The minute Enic didn't back Poch when he wanted it, needed it most, was the minute Poch lost his own motivation imo. Our owner (Joe Lewis) is one of the riches men in England. A multi-billionaire. Had Poch not proved he was worth the backing? Or was it a case of, "you have done so well on a relative budget, we just need you to do again for another couple of seasons". They wrung Poch dry!

This is what I believed happened and as a result, Poch there and then lost his motivation which I think transferred to the squad and certain individuals were happy to make this their excuse for their own commitment to THFC.

Poch, the players and Enic are all to blame for our demise over the past 18+ months, but the catalyst for that demise will always be Enic imo!

COYS!

 

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7 hours ago, Royce 71 said:

Good post James and some great points and examples I would find hard to argue with and as you say it will probably be sometime before the truth comes out, possibly another book from Poch or a retiring player?

Here's my take on it all, and I'll try to be brief....

Even though the stadium doubled in price, half a billion over budget, I still don't understand how Enic couldn't find 200 million for Poch, who obviously wanted to freshen up an ageing and in a number of cases, a complacent squad. Certain players could afford to only give 85%, because they knew they would be selected for the next game because there was no new blood to challenge their place in the team. For me, you ALWAYS strengthen when at your strongest. The minute Enic didn't back Poch when he wanted it, needed it most, was the minute Poch lost his own motivation imo. Our owner (Joe Lewis) is one of the riches men in England. A multi-billionaire. Had Poch not proved he was worth the backing? Or was it a case of, "you have done so well on a relative budget, we just need you to do again for another couple of seasons". They wrung Poch dry!

This is what I believed happened and as a result, Poch there and then lost his motivation which I think transferred to the squad and certain individuals were happy to make this their excuse for their own commitment to THFC.

Poch, the players and Enic are all to blame for our demise over the past 18+ months, but the catalyst for that demise will always be Enic imo!

COYS!

 

All valid points and likely to represent some of the underlying problems that are behind the situation behind the under performing in 2019. When Joe Lewis' yacht appeared in the Thames, I foolishly believed he was there to rubber stamp new signings for Poch. Like you, I am surprised he doesn't take advantage of his wealth to bring Spurs in line with Utd, Chelsea and City whose owners bought those clubs success as do Real Madrid and Barcelona. It would be lovely to do a Leicester City and win without buying the success. However, we have to be pragmatic and to accept that with so much money in football these days, that only the rich clubs are in with a chance of being a top European club. 

I also think that it is essential to strengthen the squad each year and is why Liverpool, Utd, Chelsea and City do it ruthlessly. If the likes of you and I can see that then surely Joe Lewis can. It seems these guys who become filthy rich fall in love with money make it their God.

Poch, who clearly believed in the journey Spurs embarked on to become one of the best teams in Europe, almost certainly lost heart with what was happening within the club. It must be very frustrating not getting the backing from Levy and Enic and having to work on a shoe string. I find it hard to believe that providing £200 million would put us in trouble with the Fair Play rules. Being the best Club in Europe would bring in riches. So it is puzzling that we are risking failure by wanting to do it the hard way by finding those showing talent to turn into world class. 

The main difference between us is that you feel if Poch was given the money to strengthen the squad he would have been successful and that may be right. My view is that I felt that he got the team to stop playing exciting football and to start playing slow and boring stuff leading to opponents easily dealing with it. Rightly ot wrongly, I find him stubborn and not willing to address the problems with change to his style

Although I was a bit stunned with Poch's sacking and Mourhino's arrival, I feel it has saved the club. If it hadn't happened, my fear is we could have finished out side of the top 6. That could have led to to losing some important players and not being able to attract decent replacements. Mourinho appears to have changed and is a proven winner, so it looks as though we will recover from this slump and the dream is back on. 

COYS

 

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Well weeks after I retired from the forum, battle weary and fatigued from trying to exchange words with the optimistic wordsmiths that often use he forum,, POCH surprisingly finds himself sacked before the United vacancy becomes available. I was totally shocked by this and will conclude that subject by saying he would not be in that position if he had purchased a 2nd striker two and a half years ago that I advised him to do 1000times and some members who like me could see it was his and the clubs major blunder at a time when the world could have been their oyster. Dear Oh Dear the rest is now History. Oh and not identifying a solid professional Club and Team Captain did not help...and is still needed!!

From the ashes we were very fortunate that a refreshed rejuvenated hopefully still World Class Manager was immediately available to take over in an orderly fashion. Many years ago I recommended we approach POCH but we were not a big enough club for him. Now we have progressed and still have huge potential, future finances and he has something to prove. It could all work out perfectly.

I would urge all fans to give him 12 months to stamp his authority on the team/squad. There is a lot of deadwood to either be further integrated into the squad and those that don't want go and are not of the standard required to be moved on. Be prepared for some bad results along the way until he has cleansed the club although I am more hopeful for a Cup now than I have been for years. A Cup would be nice but progress with results and atmosphere within the Club is more important.

I previously predicted an 8th placed 53 points total finish. Now we have a Manager Who will influence the squad and games I think that prediction is out of the window. 5th.??

Its a long time since I have declared myself an optimist but with Jose at the helm I am expecting a 2 or 3 year uplift in our fortunes.

Why is Troy Parrott being ignored? Is he not as good as hoped.?

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36 minutes ago, Asc3 said:

Well weeks after I retired from the forum, battle weary and fatigued from trying to exchange words with the optimistic wordsmiths that often use he forum,, POCH surprisingly finds himself sacked before the United vacancy becomes available. I was totally shocked by this and will conclude that subject by saying he would not be in that position if he had purchased a 2nd striker two and a half years ago that I advised him to do 1000times and some members who like me could see it was his and the clubs major blunder at a time when the world could have been their oyster. Dear Oh Dear the rest is now History. Oh and not identifying a solid professional Club and Team Captain did not help...and is still needed!!

From the ashes we were very fortunate that a refreshed rejuvenated hopefully still World Class Manager was immediately available to take over in an orderly fashion. Many years ago I recommended we approach POCH but we were not a big enough club for him. Now we have progressed and still have huge potential, future finances and he has something to prove. It could all work out perfectly.

I would urge all fans to give him 12 months to stamp his authority on the team/squad. There is a lot of deadwood to either be further integrated into the squad and those that don't want go and are not of the standard required to be moved on. Be prepared for some bad results along the way until he has cleansed the club although I am more hopeful for a Cup now than I have been for years. A Cup would be nice but progress with results and atmosphere within the Club is more important.

I previously predicted an 8th placed 53 points total finish. Now we have a Manager Who will influence the squad and games I think that prediction is out of the window. 5th.??

Its a long time since I have declared myself an optimist but with Jose at the helm I am expecting a 2 or 3 year uplift in our fortunes.

Why is Troy Parrott being ignored? Is he not as good as hoped.?

Good to see you back again. I too have had my hopes raised for an improvement for the rest of the season, but last night's choice of players and the system M used puzzled me, so I am living with a cautious hopefulness as apposed to, 'Wow! We are heading for a super improvement.

You know me well, I shall be on and off my fence several times by the end of the season.  LOL

COYS

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4 hours ago, Asc3 said:

Well weeks after I retired from the forum, battle weary and fatigued from trying to exchange words with the optimistic wordsmiths that often use he forum,, POCH surprisingly finds himself sacked before the United vacancy becomes available. I was totally shocked by this and will conclude that subject by saying he would not be in that position if he had purchased a 2nd striker two and a half years ago that I advised him to do 1000times and some members who like me could see it was his and the clubs major blunder at a time when the world could have been their oyster. Dear Oh Dear the rest is now History. Oh and not identifying a solid professional Club and Team Captain did not help...and is still needed!!

From the ashes we were very fortunate that a refreshed rejuvenated hopefully still World Class Manager was immediately available to take over in an orderly fashion. Many years ago I recommended we approach POCH but we were not a big enough club for him. Now we have progressed and still have huge potential, future finances and he has something to prove. It could all work out perfectly.

I would urge all fans to give him 12 months to stamp his authority on the team/squad. There is a lot of deadwood to either be further integrated into the squad and those that don't want go and are not of the standard required to be moved on. Be prepared for some bad results along the way until he has cleansed the club although I am more hopeful for a Cup now than I have been for years. A Cup would be nice but progress with results and atmosphere within the Club is more important.

I previously predicted an 8th placed 53 points total finish. Now we have a Manager Who will influence the squad and games I think that prediction is out of the window. 5th.??

Its a long time since I have declared myself an optimist but with Jose at the helm I am expecting a 2 or 3 year uplift in our fortunes.

Why is Troy Parrott being ignored? Is he not as good as hoped.?

Good to see you posting again my friend!

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I'm the same right I'm a bit flummoxed to what I was doing last night why the hell would you not start with skip and Parrot give them a chance at least we could have put some long balls over the top against their High Line but more I was to sitting out on his own isolated and so was settee gone after the goal Ericsson is a disgrace Dyer is the worst headless donkey unfit not worthy to play and the Spurs shirt doesn't track anyone too slow can't tackle.

Oversee Josie must know what you doing but not even giving parrot a chance last night to me seem ridiculous why you even take him and risks son injured

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23 hours ago, Asc3 said:

 

From the ashes we were very fortunate that a refreshed rejuvenated hopefully still World Class Manager was immediately available to take over in an orderly fashion. Many years ago I recommended we approach POCH but we were not a big enough club for him. Now we have progressed and still have huge potential, future finances and he has something to prove. It could all work out perfectly.

 

Surely , you mean Mourinho ?

 

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3 hours ago, Tonto911 said:

Surely , you mean Mourinho ?

 

 

4 hours ago, Tonto911 said:

Surely , you mean Mourinho ?

 

Thank You. Pleased someone is awake or got all their marbles on this forum...lol

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14 hours ago, Asc3 said:

 

Thank You. Pleased someone is awake or got all their marbles on this forum...lol

14 hours ago, Asc3 said:

 

Thank You. Pleased someone is awake or got all their marbles on this forum..

14 hours ago, Asc3 said:

 

Thank You. Pleased someone is awake or got all their marbles on this forum...lol

I was awake but couldn't quite understand it and ( being an officer and gentleman) was too polite to mention it. Luckily Tonto worked it out and now I get the gist. 

COYS

You'll probably respond that me being a 'Rupert' was too thick to work it out. LOL

 

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21 hours ago, Asc3 said:

 

Thank You. Pleased someone is awake or got all their marbles on this forum...lol

I read it several times before questioning you...  Marbles ? Now there's a thing, we used play some game with them little fellas, but I soon got bored and got rid of them all when I bought myself a metal catapult... Can't remember where they all landed, but there was somebody, not very nice, local to me that was often scared by the sudden splattering of glass close by them.....  We used to take it in turns trying to shoot his apples down, after he caught us scrumping in his garden, and told my parents..... grass.....

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"I was awake but couldn't quite understand it and ( being an officer and gentleman) was too polite to mention it. Luckily Tonto worked it out and now I get the gist. "

So James, what rank were you ?

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In the boys army I finished up as Sgt. Then in the regulars I reached WO1 before being commissioned and had reached major before joining you civvies. Not bad for someone who left school at 15 with no qualifications. I never had the chance to go to grammar school as my dad was in the army dragging me from posting to posting. I did make head boy in the County Modern school I was at.

The  millennium snowflakes of today are told that they can't cope but would be given counselling. When I was a boy you had your arse kicked and had to toughen up. Failure was not an option. 

COYS

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7 minutes ago, Jamesinashby said:

In the boys army I finished up as Sgt. Then in the regulars I reached WO1 before being commissioned and had reached major before joining you civvies. Not bad for someone who left school at 15 with no qualifications. I never had the chance to go to grammar school as my dad was in the army dragging me from posting to posting. I did make head boy in the County Modern school I was at.

The  millennium snowflakes of today are told that they can't cope but would be given counselling. When I was a boy you had your arse kicked and had to toughen up. Failure was not an option. 

COYS

My old man was a WO1  - first intake into REME (buggered up his reserved occupation) as sergeant and de-mobbed in 1946 as  WO1. He served in Java and Batavia.

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Great stories and Histories very spooky my old man was also so in the Reme's,1946

What regiment was your dad in my dad was in the Surrey and I think Sussex engineers as well?

I believe he made a corporal with the Bren gun carrier crew but it's something a bit naughty and had it stripped away because he was trying to defend one of his friends served in Palestine Israel and Italy. Unfortunately passed away at 86 but could still get down on the floor at my rifle club and shooter Royal Enfield rifle at 83 years old.

Spurs through and through like my 87 year old mother still with us thank God. She still ringing me out and says when are we playing.

I served in the South London Royal hard ass murderers and drug dealers school of knocks where we learn if you get punched or kicked you just hit back twice as hard, on the pitch I learned if you take them out on the side of the thigh sorry with a dead leg they don't get up again

 

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My Father was a Flight Lt in the RAF as a Navigator, flew 25 bombing missions over Germany, and they took a few hits, and lost a plane or two, but luckily( and unusually) they never lost a Crew member..... He worked in local government, and he got to 60 and had a heart attack two weeks before his retirement...  Mum got to 86.....

Christmas is shit for me without them........

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Happy New Year to one and all for all those parents and Spurs fans that can't be with us anymore we salute you,  we are one big spurs family and it's good to be be part of something big that's hopefully going to get even bigger Here's To Glory hopefully happy times in 2020.Coys

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I've just seen a snippet saying the Sun is reporting that Poch may take over at Zenit St Petersburg. 

I hope this is just the usual journo tripe. I would like to see him take over a half decent club where he has a chance to demonstrate he really can lead top teams into winning trophies. 

JM has turned the situation around by being provided with players that really improve the squad. We will never know whether Poch could have done it as he was never provided with new players with a proven good track record. 

COYS 

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So it's exactly a year ago today that Poch was sacked. Looking at the postings then some of you were quite clearly annoyed and angry at the decision. You also despised the thought of Mourinho coming in as manager.

I wonder how many of you have perhaps mellowed in the last 12 months and changed your views in any way, or are any of you still adamant that Poch should have stayed and Jose was the wrong choice for his replacement ??

Let's read your thoughts a whole year on.........

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19 minutes ago, Borodin said:

So it's exactly a year ago today that Poch was sacked. Looking at the postings then some of you were quite clearly annoyed and angry at the decision. You also despised the thought of Mourinho coming in as manager.

I wonder how many of you have perhaps mellowed in the last 12 months and changed your views in any way, or are any of you still adamant that Poch should have stayed and Jose was the wrong choice for his replacement ??

Let's read your thoughts a whole year on.........

I feel alot of fans fence sat right up to the successful transfer window (me kinda being one), some fans still fence sat right up there until we beat Man Utd.

I think he has the large majority of fans on side now and looks forward to greeting them back to the stadium.

After all, the fans are JMs 12th man on game day

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7 minutes ago, Cromulentmart said:

I thought Poch had to go, but I did not want Mourinho. I was dead set against it.

I'm happy to admit I was wrong

 

You're a gentleman sir, not many people admit to being wrong these days. It's regarded as a weakness for some bizarre reason. I must admit I had my reservations but I'm more than happy to have had them dispelled. Let's hope we both continue to be pleasantly surprised where this journey take us and our football club. :16:

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47 minutes ago, Borodin said:

So it's exactly a year ago today that Poch was sacked. Looking at the postings then some of you were quite clearly annoyed and angry at the decision. You also despised the thought of Mourinho coming in as manager.

I wonder how many of you have perhaps mellowed in the last 12 months and changed your views in any way, or are any of you still adamant that Poch should have stayed and Jose was the wrong choice for his replacement ??

Let's read your thoughts a whole year on.........

Oh!! I can't remember many that would even be prepared to give the "Experienced One" a chance never mind support him. I often have to at humble pie so I look forward to some more, many more posts on this subject. 

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16 minutes ago, Cromulentmart said:

I thought Poch had to go, but I did not want Mourinho. I was dead set against it.

I'm happy to admit I was wrong

 

I'm from the same club, Crom. I too, despite liking Poch and would have loved him to have reversed the slump, I started making 'time to go' posts. Having never liked Mourhino, I was horrified when I read he was our new manager - especially having seen the debacle when he was with Utd. His previous successes meant nothing to me.

I am getting that my animosity is slowly changing to a reluctant acceptance that he has done a very good job so far - especially in getting DL to adding half decent players on his shopping list. I am not 100% there yet. These next 7 games will define for me if it is time to give him my full support. 

COYS 

 

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4 hours ago, Jamesinashby said:

I'm from the same club, Crom. I too, despite liking Poch and would have loved him to have reversed the slump, I started making 'time to go' posts. Having never liked Mourhino, I was horrified when I read he was our new manager - especially having seen the debacle when he was with Utd. His previous successes meant nothing to me.

I am getting that my animosity is slowly changing to a reluctant acceptance that he has done a very good job so far - especially in getting DL to adding half decent players on his shopping list. I am not 100% there yet. These next 7 games will define for me if it is time to give him my full support. 

COYS 

 

I was in the time to go camp o loved poch what he did for us but I think he lost the dressing room unfortunately didn't have the balls big enough to kick down his door and say get me the players. I was at the game where vertonghen  had the black eye and the silly rumours about him and eriksen's wife time and I saw some of the backroom staff doing the warm-ups none of the players seem to be having fun it just didn't look like they were not gelling  at all.

I did say that Mourinho would actually have the bollox to sit down a list of players that were required and hopefully the Deadwood that needs to be shed to levy.

Play wise I think he's doing ok he's just got off load some crap stop relying on Dire and winks, January get a playmaker.

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