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Knightwriter

Dembele and Paulinho

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Nothing to do with Villa being shit then?

If Arsenal play Juventus (who play 352) we'll see if theirs a difference to Villa.

352 was also used by Barcelona many times under Gourdiola. It's not outdated, it's just there's been a trend to 433 and using converted wingers at full back.

In my opinion a traditional 442 is outdated in big matches because getting outnumbered in central midfield is the suicide imo.

Every system has strengths and weaknesses. I think 442 is also still useful against weaker teams.

What way do you think 352 is suicide? If it is done well I think it is a viable option if you have the right players and wing backs with pace and great stamina to get up and down.

What many people seem to forget is that many teams play wingers that come in and don't really track back and with the full backs so forward that they are essentially playing 352 when they have the ball anyway.

We better look at getting rid of about 90% of our squad and start again then! Then we can get the players for 3-5-2. Barca played this system because the Spanish league is so shit and they could get away with it. Besides it had nothing to do with their system but the way they played under pep and the players buying into he's philosophy, not the system.

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Now I am really going to open myself up for a lot of abuse (and perhaps show how ignornt I am about football tactics), but here goes. With the amount of talent in this squad, would it be worth considering a bit of a twist on the Johan Cruyff "total football" philosophy? Not so drastic as "any out player can take over for any other out player", but a system with defenders fairly well situated, and the midfield and strikers being extremely fluent? It would confuse the shit out of every team we played against and wouldn't put so much pressure on, for example, Soldado. I mean he isn't scoring so much but makes some brilliant passes which lead to goals.

 

Years ago, a BBC journalist asked Michael Laudrup, after pointing out how often he would pass up a 99% chance of scoring, to pass to a teammate with a 99,9% chance of scoring, "Michael, don't you like to score goals?" To which Laudrup responded, "I like to win".

 

So, a football anecdote with some, perhaps, foolish tactical theory. But, could it work?

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We better look at getting rid of about 90% of our squad and start again then! Then we can get the players for 3-5-2. Barca played this system because the Spanish league is so shit and they could get away with it. Besides it had nothing to do with their system but the way they played under pep and the players buying into he's philosophy, not the system.

I don't think we need to change the personnel for that.  That's one of the reasons I suggested it because we have so much pace and so many central players.  That's my opinion.

 

Barca played it in Europe and in the Classico, so that argument doesn't really hold up mate.

 

And I agree, the main thing is the players buying into a philosophy.  The system is just dots and crosses, but plays a role none the less.  I don't think Barca, Juve or Liverpool are going to play a system in big games unless they know it can work.

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IMO Holtby doesn't have a position.

 

He's not a number 10, he's not a box2box midfielder, not a DM, not a winger, lacks positional awareness when he plays deep and looks unfit. 

 

Headless chicken springs to mind.......but great lad though.

I think he can play but I agree he's none of what you state but I'd describe him as a central midfielder not defensive not pushed right up. He works hard he can pass not got a bad touch and like quite a few others we have imo needs a run of games to show his best.

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I think he can play but I agree he's none of what you state but I'd describe him as a central midfielder not defensive not pushed right up. He works hard he can pass not got a bad touch and like quite a few others we have imo needs a run of games to show his best.

 

Central midfielder means box2box which is what they have to do. And he doesn't have the fitness or positional sense to play that role IMO.

 

Think he'll be sold this window.

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IMO Holtby doesn't have a position.

 

He's not a number 10, he's not a box2box midfielder, not a DM, not a winger, lacks positional awareness when he plays deep and looks unfit. 

 

Headless chicken springs to mind.......but great lad though.

So you rate him then.

 

Why do you love a defender with no pace, only okay positioning (but has improved it), poor distribution, very little techical ability coming out with the ball and the same colour hair?

 

I'm not totally sure about Holtby either, but I think he is one that did not suit AVB's tactics at all.  When we moved the ball better in the prem near the end of AVB he started to light up and play the killer passes and he did it in the Europa.  I always like a midfielder that gets stuck in, shows determination to win, wants the ball, looks for a pass and makes angle to receive it.  If you want the fastest way to my heart as a central midfielder or attacking midfielder that's the way to do it.  I find it hard to resist a player that is obsessed with doing his job correctly.  And he has it in his locker to improve a lot.

 

One thing that pisses me off is players that turn their back on the play or don't get into position to get the ball and when they have it aren't looking for a pass.  You see it all the time, especially in England.  Pauli and Dembele are guilty of this quite a bit and that pisses me off way more than Holtby's trouble settling into the prem.  Dembele tries to dribble, which is great if he's up in the final third.  And Pauli only knows how to play in the final third as well.

 

Like many, Holtby needs time before any 100% assessments are made imo.

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Central midfielder means box2box which is what they have to do. And he doesn't have the fitness or positional sense to play that role IMO.

 

Think he'll be sold this window.

That's bollocks Turk.  Where are you getting have to be box2box from?

 

The best midfielders of all time and of the current era would have all been turfed out if that was the main criteria.

 

Can you describe Scholes, Maradona, Valderama, Xavi, Xabi Alonso as box to box?

 

Scholes may have been box to box before 25 but certainly not after it.

 

There is an obsession in England with box to box but the fact is the best cm players take the ball, control the tempo and back up the play and make the runs when appropriate.

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So you rate him then.

 

Why do you love a defender with no pace, only okay positioning (but has improved it), poor distribution, very little techical ability coming out with the ball and the same colour hair?

 

I'm not totally sure about Holtby either, but I think he is one that did not suit AVB's tactics at all.  When we moved the ball better in the prem near the end of AVB he started to light up and play the killer passes and he did it in the Europa.  I always like a midfielder that gets stuck in, shows determination to win, wants the ball, looks for a pass and makes angle to receive it.  If you want the fastest way to my heart as a central midfielder or attacking midfielder that's the way to do it.  I find it hard to resist a player that is obsessed with doing his job correctly.  And he has it in his locker to improve a lot.

 

One thing that pisses me off is players that turn their back on the play or don't get into position to get the ball and when they have it aren't looking for a pass.  You see it all the time, especially in England.  Pauli and Dembele are guilty of this quite a bit and that pisses me off way more than Holtby's trouble settling into the prem.  Dembele tries to dribble, which is great if he's up in the final third.  And Pauli only knows how to play in the final third as well.

 

Like many, Holtby needs time before any 100% assessments are made imo.

 

Not sure what Dawson has got to do with Holtby. 

 

Dawson has been poor this season and would be dropped if we didn't have key injuries. Although he's done better recently, it's still an area we need to improve but I also worry about Vertonghen and Vlad as a pairing. Who will win the headers?

 

But Dawson has only lost 8 games in 46 - so he's not high on my agenda and quite frankly he's a CB, not a midfielder. 

 

Also Vlad has been very hit and miss, but it seems many will always blame Dawson.

 

Giving an honest assessment I don't believe Holtby will make it. He's been at the club for a year now and I still don't know his best position.

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That's bollocks Turk.  Where are you getting have to be box2box from?

 

The best midfielders of all time and of the current era would have all been turfed out if that was the main criteria.

 

Can you describe Scholes, Maradona, Valderama, Xavi, Xabi Alonso as box to box?

 

Scholes may have been box to box before 25 but certainly not after it.

 

There is an obsession in England with box to box but the fact is the best cm players take the ball, control the tempo and back up the play and make the runs when appropriate.

 

No you're right, but I don't believe Holtby can control games, he doesn't have the positional sense or awareness.

 

The players you mentioned had the ability to affect change, they are big time players and Holtby shouldn't even be mentioned in the same bracket.

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We have to many midfielders that haven't got a actual position, and none are getting a real crack at the whip...sandro is the only starter all the others have major faults....Lennon definite winger but can't cross, Townsend wants to shoot always, dembelle does all the damage in the wrong area, paulis had one good game and can't shoot, holtby doesn't know what he is, lamela hasn't had any game time, siggy cuts in too far, capoue poor mans sandro at best, eriksen just finding his feet but can be ineffective.

If all fit

Lloris

Walker kaboul vertonghen rose

Sandro

Lennon eriksen townsends

Lamela soldado

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Not sure what Dawson has got to do with Holtby. 

 

Dawson has been poor this season and would be dropped if we didn't have key injuries. Although he's done better recently, it's still an area we need to improve but I also worry about Vertonghen and Vlad as a pairing. Who will win the headers?

 

But Dawson has only lost 8 games in 46 - so he's not high on my agenda and quite frankly he's a CB, not a midfielder. 

 

Also Vlad has been very hit and miss, but it seems many will always blame Dawson.

 

Giving an honest assessment I don't believe Holtby will make it. He's been at the club for a year now and I still don't know his best position.

I just found it curious that you've defended a guy in Dawson so much despite average ability but criticise Holtby for similar reasons, who has a lot more ability and potential in his position of central or attacking midfield imo.

 

Last time I checked closing the ball down, effort and determination were admirable, not deserving of the headless chicken label.  Surely that's what you call David Luiz or some of the box to box men that don't show and look to get on the ball and make things happen like Holtby tries to do.

 

Both Dawson and Holtby are what I'd describe as 'great lads'.  That's all I meant by it.  Not saying we should get rid of Daws either.  I'm not a big fan but he's got his merits for sure and is always up for it.  You can't but like his all for the cause character, just like Sandro.

 

I've no worries about Vlad and Verts, they are just top defenders and footballers for me.  They'll get stuck in if they need to.  I'd say Vlad will be given headers if they play together and he's a strong and tough bugger as well as someone that can play.  Have you seen the size of his upper body?  It's very rare people get the better of him.  They would need to get used to playing teams that pump the ball forward but they have all the qualities needed imo.  He keeps getting bashed in the face for a reason, he is not afraid one bit of putting himself about.

 

I don't think we lack for spirit, hunger or courage in our team.  Can't say I've always said that about Tottenham sides, but I don't have any worries in that regard.

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I just found it curious that you've defended a guy in Dawson so much despite average ability but criticise Holtby for similar reasons, who has a lot more ability and potential in his position of central or attacking midfield imo.

 

Last time I checked closing the ball down, effort and determination were admirable, not deserving of the headless chicken label.  Surely that's what you call David Luiz or some of the box to box men that don't show and look to get on the ball and make things happen like Holtby does.

 

Both Dawson and Holtby are what I'd describe as 'great lads'.  That's all I meant by it.  Not saying we should get rid of Daws either.  I'm not a big fan but he's got his merits for sure and is always up for it.

 

I've no worries about Vlad and Verts, they are just top defenders and footballers for me.  They'll get stuck in if they need to.  I'd say Vlad will be given headers if they play together and he's a strong and tough bugger as well as someone that can play.  Have you seen the size of his upper body?  It's very rare people get the better of him.  They would need to get used to playing teams that pump the ball forward but they have all the qualities needed imo.

 

I don't we lack for spirit, hunger or courage in our team.  Can't say I've always said that about Tottenham sides, but I don't have any worries in that regard.

 

Think your bringing up Dawson and my views on him from past conversations which is complete bollocks Choda. I've not rated Dawson at all this season. It would be like me mentioning Andy Reid. 

 

My point was not about anyone's ability.

 

Dawson is a CB. I'm not sure what position Holtby is best suited to.

 

I've not mentioned Holtby's technical ability at all, he's clearly talented but that's not what I was getting at.

 

I hope you're right regarding Vlad and Vertonghen. But I worry big time about both, especially the physical nature of English football and at times Vlad has been caught out along with Dawson. 

 

But Vlad is new, highly talented, the new breed of CB, where they like to defend one on one and break forward in possession. 

 

I disagree with your last point, Tim even mentioned our attitude against Palace, "we need more leaders."

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Does anyone thick that part of our problem is that we have too many players?

 

I think we have too many cooks in the kitchen. But we need options, our biggest problem in recent years has been replacing key players through injuries. 

 

I think selling Holtby will mean Bentaleb coming through the system and being a regular. 

 

Not as good as Eriksen or Lamela (?) at 10
Not as good as Dembele, Paulinho, Bentelab (?) at 8

 

I hope we keep Capoue though, I think he can be a very important player, especially when Sandro suffers another injury.

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It seems to me that some players are played in different positions every game. We seem to lack continuity, although I accept that a lot of that is to do with injuries.

 

I believe that's been sorted since Tims arrived, much more balanced and we look more fluid going forward.

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Okay let's leave the Dawson one alone.  I just wanted to hear what you'd say and take your point.

 

I stand by anything I've said about Andy Reid by the way. 

 

Finding the correct area for Dembele and Paulinho is far more difficult than Holtby imo.  I'd be far more concerned about them than Holtby in that regard because he creates good angles to get the ball and looks for a pass.  This is a fundemental of that position.  If we are questioning ability then that remains to be seen.  My feeling is that Carroll will be the man to take over that role.

 

I think we have leaders, but some of them are in the treatment room.

 

I consider that we have many players with good winning mentality, like Lloris, Dawson, Walker, Holtby, Sandro, Verts, maybe even Vlad (needs better English though) and Rose.  Fair few national captains there by the way!

 

I see a lot more in Rose than other people.  I really like him, think he'll be a top player.  I see a lot of Walker in him.  I see a lot of Ashley Cole in Walker.  Starting to sound like a gay porn fan.

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Okay let's leave the Dawson one alone.  I just wanted to hear what you'd say and take your point.

 

I stand by anything I've said about Andy Reid by the way. 

 

Finding the correct area for Dembele and Paulinho is far more difficult than Holtby imo.  I'd be far more concerned about them than Holtby in that regard because he creates good angles to get the ball and looks for a pass.  This is a fundemental of that position.  If we are questioning ability then that remains to be seen.  My feeling is that Carroll will be the man to take over that role.

 

I think we have leaders, but some of them are in the treatment room.

 

I consider that we have many players with good winning mentality, like Lloris, Dawson, Walker, Holtby, Sandro, Verts, maybe even Vlad (needs better English though) and Rose.  Fair few national captains there by the way!

 

I see a lot more in Rose than other people.  I really like him, think he'll be a top player.  I see a lot of Walker in him.  I see a lot of Ashley Cole in Walker.  Starting to sound like a gay porn fan.

 

I don't agree, I feel both Dembele and Pauline are natural CM and will fit well with Sandro. My only gripe would be none are able to control a game in the way Modric would, but if we can keep a strong shape and get Eriksen, Lamela on the ball I wouldn't see that as a big problem. Plus Carroll and Bentaleb have shown they can both control the ball.

 

We certainly have bigger characters in the treatment room, but I'm not convinced we have the right mentality to be a big side. Love to be proved wrong.

 

Lloris, Dawson, Walker, Sandro certainly. Not sure about Vlad yet. Personally been disappointed with Verts attitude this season. Rose is very aggressive, I do like him, so hopefully he'll continue to develop.

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Holtby is a decent little player but he doesn't have a 'position'. Like Turk said, he's not a ball winning midfielder, not really a box to box type player, not clever enough to be a number 10. He certainly has attributes but he doesn't quite fit in at Spurs. I like him but wouldn't be too fussed if he were to leave. Same with Capoue.

 

Also, just got to say that Vlad scares the shite out of me. Again, talented but he will be caught out regularly unless he improves, he takes too many touches, too many risks and his positioning and holding of the line is really suspect. 

 

We currently have so many question marks over so many players in the first team squad. 

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Yeah but remember andy reid's goal though..

Got to give Reid some credit, he has got himself in really good shape at Forest and is putting in some really good performances. Seen them quite a few times and it's good that he's settled and is at the right level. He was never going to be able to cut it at the top level. 

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AVB bought many midfielders because he made the plan to play 4-5-1.

Now it's obvious we have too many, so we need to offload.

More than than, Bentaleb is another one.

Sell Capoue (even I believe he is decent).

 

If 4-4-2 is the long term solution, then we should sell Holtby and buy another striker.

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